Blaugust Day 30: Raids… Crap, What Happens to Everything Else? (GW2)

This morning, I woke up with my mind buzzing from a certain amount of worry.

At first, it was just the expected personal problem of wondering how the hell I was going to fit my personal schedule around the concept of raiding in GW2… especially since I’m in the GMT+8 timezone, making essentially all NA and EU guilds verboten, and even OCE guilds start raids about two hours earlier than I can really afford to be present while holding down a job.

Especially since the intent was to make sure said 10-person group undergoes repeated headbanging failure before maybe succeeding, after a great deal of build tweaking and coordination and practice.

That means a relatively regular group is needed, no?

Then I started wondering about how TTS was going to handle the introduction of raids…

The habit has always been for about 90-120 people gather up for Karka Queen, Tequatl and Triple Trouble Wurm. That’s about the most OCE/SEA critical mass that can be pulled at any one point in time.

Would they do the same, then split them up into groups of ten?

But wait, there might be a problem of lack of organized leadership… which means the number of each potential group that can be formed shrinks…

…which means there’s going to be competition for the desired raid spots… and resultant ill-feeling if you don’t make it in… sorta like how the 160th person sulks if they can’t manage to get into a Triple Trouble map… (except that we almost never hit that kind of number with TT, and we’ll definitely exceed that with a ten person raid)

And what if a huge chunk of leaders decide that they are just going to go form their own specialized raid group instead…

…what happens to the inclusivity of the Teq/Triple Wurm schedule?

And then it hit me, and my commenter Athie also drilled down to the root of the problem, WAIT, NO ONE IS GOING TO GIVE A DAMN ABOUT TRIPLE WURM ANY LONGER.


Dungeons? Pfft.

Fractals? Fucking Ascended rings, right? And now reduced to one fractal each time. Meh, that’s for casuals.

Triple Trouble Wurm? A lame ass chance at Ascended armor with stats you probably won’t be able to use, and more likely, 5 lousy champion bags and some blues and greens.

EVERYTHING will be shoved aside, and the ALL IMPORTANT GODLY RAID will be placed on a pedestal of awe and desirability.

THAT is going to be a problem. The lack of any other alternative to get one’s mitts on Legendary armor, making raids highly desirable and causing everything else to fall by the wayside and look bad in comparison.

What’s going to happen to our friendly community guilds that welcome any influx of new players cos it means hitting critical mass then?

Torn apart, that’s what. You won’t want new players to learn the complicated raid dance if it sets your group back by weeks. You want the same regular group of 10, period. That forms exclusivity. That forms elitism if that pack of 10 gets all the shiny Legendary armor that no one else can get.

Now I have a sunken pit of dread in my stomach that isn’t going away.

I hope Athie’s right and GW2 makes a dramatic and unpredictable direction swing several months later, because the extrapolation from here is not looking good at all.

11 thoughts on “Blaugust Day 30: Raids… Crap, What Happens to Everything Else? (GW2)

  1. Bearing in mind, though, said extrapolation is from a press event that was mostly bones and not a lot of meat. We’ve only been given the slightest idea of how raids will work and what that means for other content that’s in the game already.

    Of course, I’m not trying to shout down some well thought out concerns–far from it. What I’m advising is to get your most comfortable cushion suitable for sitting on a fence and wait for more details to trickle down.

    I strongly doubt you’re the only one with these questions…and I would hope that ANet get asked and can answer them.


    1. Ask yourself if Legendary weapons are perceived as super-desirable by a majority of the playerbase.

      All you need is the perception for the bulk of people to gravitate to the activity in question. It’s like “zerker or GTFO.” Or bearbows suck. Or the new butt-boy “necros = auto kick from dungeons.”

      Strictly speaking, not true, but true enough for most of the population to alter the culture.


      1. A lot of players just quit the idea they need hunt for legendary weapons. They see them as very expensive skins. Some people get one or two precursor from Random Goddess and each legendary need around 1 k gold for be crafted from that precursor.
        Too much expensive for a pretty skin…
        A guild member of mine just said yesterday that after get Sunrise completed he will not try other legendary, it is too much expensive.
        Now it is coming the legendary crafting, where you can craft the precursor. We need see how it will work, but I guess it will be a huge money sink. Maybe more expensive than the current money sink.
        By the way, IMHO the legendary armor need mastery at legendary crafting. It is the last line at that mastery, HoT legendaries. That will lower for some time the quantity of players that will have the want go to the raid dungeons. But that will be a short time, while almost everyone will complete the legendary crafting mastery.
        I too see that the raid dungeons will have the same group mechanic than normal dungeons. They will not be guild member events, get everyone that want go to dungeon crawling.
        With relation to zerker armor, I am sorry to say you are outdated. Now condi armor is so good than zerk armor.
        And you are forgetting something. That raid dungeons will need HoT masteries, and there are not only gliding mastery from HoT. You saw there is a mastery for make possible to damage a class of creatures with impenetrable bark? Exalted Lore.
        My guess: you need exalted lore for last line for damage the bosses inside the raid dungeons. And from what devs said, you need condi for eat that bark. So, condi is the new black for the raid dungeons.
        But IMHO you too need the other HoT mastery lines for make damage to bosses or for heal damage that bosses causes or to move inside dungeons.
        Sincerely, only who want waste a huge quantity of time will try it. I agree that hardcore will get it first, but casuals will get there eventually. It is not closed for casuals. But people will need decide if they want use a huge quantity of time and gold for get a pretty skin.
        Sorry to be so long. But I think you frequently lose the perspective about GW2 and go to rant mode so easy for issues that later prove be small. How much time you created fuss about new GW2 features? Remember what you said about ascended gear?


        Each zone have 3 different maps: roots, ground and canopy. Last beta weekend we saw only canopy, next one we will see ground at same zone. IMHO, with 4 zones we have 12 different maps.


  2. I think short term… yeah. Lots of shiny carrots to chase that don’t jive with TTS’s way. Fractal teams are going to form to get to 100. Raid teams are going to form for world first and then whatever is needed for legendary armors. Players are going to want to max out masteries, beat HoT, get all their specs done, etc.

    You have to break away from goals to enjoy the time that TTS provides.

    Once the dust settles and some of the goals become more long term (our weekly raid group does Thursday nights, etc.) then I feel TTS will come back for their party time.


  3. Do you really need to do raids at all? Do you want to do them? Why? If you do, do you need to do them right away or can you wait? A month? A year?

    Do you need Legendary armor? What for? Is it going to let you do something you otherwise couldn’t do? What’s that?

    Can you not simply ignore raids altogether or follow along later when the early ones reach farm status and keep moving along at that distance behind the wave? If you excise raids from the range of options does it leave enough to make GW2 interesting still?

    That last question is my own stumbling block. It’s not that I fear raids will disrupt all the things I want from GW2 – it’s that it’s getting increasingly difficult to come up with a list of those things in the first place.

    Mostly, though, I think raiding is a complete red herring. It’s my experience in the many other MMOs that have a raiding endgame that raiders are their own community and their interests and concerns can be (and are) safely ignored by what I have always considered to be the regular community, the players who form the great majority of every game.

    It’s often been claimed by developers that only around 10% of players see any raids at all. It was only by adding the LFR system and making raids so simple no-one could really fail that WoW managed to mainstream raiding. Prior to that, for almost all WoW players, raiding was something other people did. Can’t see why GW2 should be any different.

    Anyway, 10-mans are not raids. Not under any definition I understand. Ten people is just a slightly exaggerated group. I’v eplayed MMOs where the base group size was 8 people for heaven’s sake. A raid has got to be four normal groups minimum or it’s not worthy of the name.

    Triple-Headed Wurm, Teq, Karka Queen – those are raids. A WvW zerg is a raid. We already have some of the biggest raids in the genre – this is all smoke and mirrors to sell us instances, probably for reasons of controlling development cost.

    As for how it will affect TTS, I have never understood how TTS is anything other than exactly the kind of elitist organization you’ve always reviled. I just don’t get it. For example, they appear on a map, dominate it, require everyone to be in a 3rd party voice chat system that many players won’t even have heard of let alone own or know how to operate, then when they have everything set up just how they like it they suddenly vanish en masse, leaving the map virtually empty and the genuine casuals puzzled and confused, with absolutely no hope of carrying the event to any kind of conclusion. Seen that happen often.

    I thought the appearance of the cross-server “raiding” guilds that came under the TTS banner were the single worst social development GW2 has seen to date. It was as close to a rubicon moment for the game for me as Ascended gear and as the addition of raids now seems to be for you. I have nothing positive to say about the addition of raiding to the game per se: I think it is wholly bad and entirely the wrong direction to go. If it breaks the hegemony of cross-server guilds, however, at least it will have had one positive outcome.


    1. I was -already- worried with the introduction of Tequatl, then Triple Trouble.

      TTS came in as a sort of neutral solution I could more or less reconcile and live with. I did point out that there was exclusion with Triple Trouble and Teq based on the map size limit, the more insanely dedicated ones who show up half an hour to one hour earlier get the first cut of slots, so to speak – but decided that at 150, it wasn’t that terrible a limitation.

      Also, there was scaling, so to speak, in that you can do the thing with a relatively flexible amount of people.

      10-person raids are a bit more limiting and exclusionary numbers-wise, though we are still left to see if there will be sufficient flex in difficulty that say, a super-elite group of 5-6 could manage it, or maybe 8-8 people, or if it -must- be 10 people, period.

      It’s definitely a slippery slope, and I’m not sure where my frog-boiling tolerance limit is, honestly.


      1. Guys, see what I wrote above. Raid dungeons will be a huge time sink for who want just enter them. The hardcore will get it first, but it is not closed to casuals. Casuals will get there at slower pace, but they will get there. And the legendary crafting probably will be a huge gold sink.
        And the reward is just a pretty skin…


  4. We talking about Anet here.

    The company that added Ursan Blessing and Shadow Form tanking to GW1.

    I very much doubt Anet is about to invest heavily in an area only the top 1% of the population can complete.

    And if they do they won’t be investing much in it, like they didn’t invest in dungeons (the dungeon revamp end quite soon) and fractals.


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